Daivi Varna and Ashrama
Room conversation in Mayapura, February 14, 1977
Prabhupada: Revolution means they are dissatisfied.
Satsvarupa: French Revolution, Russian Revolution.
Prabhupada: These things were not going nicely. Therefore gradually
it broke. But if things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will
not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. You
must know the necessity how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the
government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people,
if they are satisfied, they will not revolt.
Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up,
Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya
Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea
of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to
implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally
took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are
not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position
of the world. That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are
not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the
external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual
platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must
pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to
the spiritual plane.
Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching
He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at
the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way
easy.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù.
Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do.
So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular
education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain
section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya.
In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a sudra
family. Take education. Be qualified.
Hari-Sauri: But in our community as it is, we are training up
as Vaisnavas...
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should
be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-Sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy.
If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.
Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce
the varnasrama system, then?
Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-Sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical
platform...
Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama,
not everybody should become brahmana.
Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being
raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...
Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.
Hari-Sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get
brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You'll
be happy.
Hari-Sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Hari-Sauri: Unless one is particularly inclined.
Prabhupada: Not that a Sudra man is by force become a brahmana.
You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra
and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana
tam abhyarcya sam... He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the
idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even
a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.
Hari-Sauri: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana?
Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation
of sudra, he'll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like
head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is
less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a
leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that
is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty
and you become perfect.
Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the
highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone
in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana.
Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him
to th at pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krsna.” Here the bodily
conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I
am that.”
Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants
some to be sudra...”
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become
Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately
to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore
the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.
Hari-Sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system
that we have now.
Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we
see by experience that they're falling down. Why falling down? Because
he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain
in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There
is no need. Krsna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhirataù?
Hari-Sauri: sve sve karmany ab hirataù saàsiddhià
labhate naraù sva-karma-nirataù siddhià
yatha vindati tac chrnu By following his qualities of work, every man can
become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.”
Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. As a sudra, he can get
the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi
and fall down? This has to be checked.
Hari-Sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation,
that so many...
Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question
is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhirataù. Brahmana
has his duty, ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his
duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect.
So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according
to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He'll become perfect. Perfection
is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he
should be made a sannyasi and fall down and b ecome a ludicrous? That is
the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's
good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Lord
Visnu can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation
of four varnas and four asramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani.
You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you
get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should
artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous?
Hari-Sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our
centers or not?
Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always
there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the
right position.
Hari-Sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was
a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnasrama system
in the society, but actually nothing came of it.
Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now yo u can do something.
Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, ksatriya...
Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly
is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because
my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain,
hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased,
the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct
order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, “Neglect the
leg. Take care of the brain.” No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in
the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then
things will go on. That is varnasrama.
Hari-Sauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varnasrama
system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...
Prabhupada: At least... At least... At least they will see,
“This is the ideal.” Ideal. We are giving the ideal. We are not going to
be a sudra. But to show ... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing
the part of a king. You are not a king.
Hari-Sauri: No.
Prabhupada: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to
play like that.
Hari-Sauri: Well, again, that's...
Prabhupada: Not necessarily that we are going to be sudra. So
that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Krsna. That's all. And
as servant of Krsna, we have to execute the order of Krsna.
Satsvarupa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for
the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.
Prabhupada: Yes. In order to serve the mass of people, to bring
them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varnasrama,
not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business.
But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to
introduce.
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