So formerly, the king was controlled
by saintly persons, by priestly order. They would give the king advice.
The Vedic society is divided into four classes of men. It is confirmed
in the Bhagavad-gétä, cätur-varëyaà mayä
såñöaà guëa-karma-vibhägaçaù
[Bg. 4.13]. According to quality and work, there are four divisions of
men: The brähmaëa, the intelligent class of men; the kñatriyas,
the administrative class of men, the martial class of men; and the vaiçyas,
the productive class of men; and the çüdras, the worker class
of men. That is still existing in a different name, but the difficulty
is, the classification is not made according to quality and work. That
was the actual position of classification. Nowadays, a çüdra
is on the government. A person who is a nonsense number one, he has no
knowledge, he is on the head of the government. The things have been topsy-turvied.
A person on religious category, he’s advocating something, oh, it is not
to be uttered. Homosex. You see? He’s advocating homosex. Just see. These
has been topsy-turvied. The four classes of men are there, still. But the
third-class, fourth-class man is taking the place of first class. And the
first-class man is kicked out, “Go out. Don’t talk of God.” This is the
position
at the present moment. The classes are there. That is natural. There must
be some first-class men, there must be some second-class men, there must
be some third-class men, there must be some fourth-class men. But the difficulty
is that the fourth-class man is taking the position of first-class man,
and the first-class man is being kicked out. Therefore there are so many
problems in the society. Guëa-karma-vibhägaçaù.
First-class man must be acting first class. But he’s acting as last class,
but he is posed in first class. Things have been topsy-turvied. So it is
the duty of the government to find out the first-class man and employ him
for first-class business, first-class activities. And what is that first-class
activity? The first-class activity is athäto brahma jijïäsä.
That is first-class activity. Otherwise, it is fourth-class activity. If
the human society is not divided into right order, cätur-varëyaà
mayä såñöaà guëa-karma-vibhägaçaù
[Bg. 4.13]. And it is the duty of the government to see that the first-class
man is employed in first-class activities, the second-class man is engaged
in second-class activities. Then the government will be nice. Now here,
the Vena Mahäräja, he’s on the head of the administration, royal
king. Now he is advising, “Reject religion. No more charity, no more sacrifice,
no more worship. Stop all this nonsense.” Then what is the condition of
the society? So that is being done.
So it will take some time to explain
about these activities of first-class, second-class, third-class men. It
is a great science. So we shall try to explain, one after another. You
please come on Sunday. I shall hold this class. For the time being, excuse
me.
Thank you very much. Hare Kåñëa.
(end)
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 21st May 1972. Sunday Feast talk. Los Angeles, CA.)
Prabhupäda: Then he has to define
what is morality.
Çyämasundara: Yes.
Prabhupäda: Everyone says,
“It is my morality.” Everyone can manufacture (indistinct). Just like,
for example in India if somebody talks of homosex (indistinct) immoral,
and here it is going on. (indistinct). So what is morality? (indistinct).
Çyämasundara: He uses
the categorical imperative that Kant set up, the different categories of
goodness and badness.
Prabhupäda: That means if you
are in the modes of goodness, your morality is different from the morality
of the man who is in the modes of ignorance.
Çyämasundara: But he
says that everything should be understood in terms of what it ought to
be, that there is an absolute good.
Prabhupäda: Yes.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. Discussions with Syamasundara dasa.)
If actually there was religion in
the human society, why there are so many problems? There should not have
been so many problems. The problems are in the animal society. Why there
should be problem in human society? Because they have given up the real
principles. They are simply animals. Therefore there are so many problems.
Actually there is no problem. Even they are not animal. Less than animal.
In animal society there is no problem. There is problem, but not so acute.
They are free. Just like the ducks, the pigeons, they fly from one country
to another. They have no problem of immigration department, passport, or
visa. They have no problem. These rascals should understand that they have
created problem on account of their animalistic, less than animalistic
civilization. There is no limit of sense gratification. The sense gratification,
homosex, they are supporting. Just see. Just see. At least, in animal society
there is no homosex. They have created homosex, and that is being passed
by the priest, the religious heads. You know that?
Prabhupäda: Just see. If
you say that they are animal civilization, that is a great credit for them.
It is less than animal civilization. Write all this in papers and everything,
all openly. Challenge strongly. First of all, realize, then challenge.
[break] Dharmeëa hénäù paçubhiù samänäù.
That is the special distinction, that their life, human life must be based
on dharma, religion. They have rejected dharma. That is another type of
frustration because the so-called leaders of religion, they could not give
anything. They also exploited people under religious sentiment. Actually
they could not make people religious. They did not know what is religion.
And therefore people become, revolted: “What is this nonsense? They are
living at our expenditure.” We are real religious people. We are enlightening
people about religion, life, about God. And these people they simply take
money and live peacefully. And drink also. Here they drink wine. In India
they drink gäïjä. You have been Rädhä-Dämodara
temple? You have seen that Gosäi?
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 25th August 1971. Room Conversation, London.)
Prabhupäda: Yes, he has this
book department. Book department and… They may move according to convenience,
Bali-mardana and Karandhara. He has got also very responsibility, with
this department, that department. He has to purchase small houses. So big
brain (indistinct). So similarly, you also think on the books. Everyone
take big responsibility. Then we have to serve this mission. The people
are foolish, they have forgotten God. We are delivering them. Best service.
And without God, it is all useless, zero, all this civilization. Zero.
Whatever they are making advancement, it is all zero. And nonsense. But
actually it is. Now the priestly order supporting homosex. I was surprised.
They are going to pass resolution for getting married between man to man.
The human society has come down to such a degraded position. It is astonishing.
When I heard from Kértanänanda Mahäräja there is
a big conference for passing this resolution. In India still, if there
somebody hears about homosex (makes sound of breathing out). Homosex is
there but nobody will support publicly. (indistinct) People are going down
and this is the subject matter for priestly order? It may be subject matter
for the legislator, priestly order, they are discussing for one week. Just
imagine. Phalena paricéyate, one has to study by the result. Not
that superficially you show that “We are very much advanced.” Phalena,
what is the result? Phalena paricéyate, your, that is in English
word also, end justifies the means. The end is this (indistinct) “We are
going to support homosex.” Getting married. There are many cases the priestly
order has actually got married. I read it in that paper, Watch, what is
called?
Devotees: Watchtower.
Prabhupäda: Watchtower. They
have complained(?). So we have nothing to (indistinct) them. The world
is degrading to the lowest status, even less than animal. The animal also
do not support homosex. They have never sex life between male to male.
They are less than animal. People are becoming less than animal. This is
all due to godlessness. Haräv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guëä
[SB 5.18.12], godless civilization cannot have any good qualities. Haräv
abhaktasya kuto mahad-guëä mano rathena asato dhävato… They
simply go to the untruth by mental speculation. (end)
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 25th May 1972. Conversation with GBC. Los Angeles, CA)
Jayatértha: In the last six
years in the Catholic church, 25,000 priests have left and taken up…
Prabhupäda: 25,000?
Jayatértha: 25,000 in six
years.
Prabhupäda: What is that?
Jayatértha: Have left the
Catholic church, priests.
Prabhupäda: Left.
Jayatértha:
Ordained priests, they have left and gone off to marry or whatever.
Especially they are concerned
that they can’t marry. Catholic priests are not allowed to marry.
Prabhupäda: Marrying? They
are marrying man to man ,what to speak of marrying. Sodomy.
Jayatértha: So that’s
the alternative. Either they’re leaving or they’re marrying man to man.
Prabhupäda: Homosex. They
are supporting homosex. So degraded, and still they say, “What we have
done?” They do not know what is degradation, and they are priest. They
are teaching others. They do not know what is the meaning of degradation.
Svarüpa Dämodara: So if
the leader is degraded, how can the followers…
Prabhupäda: Similarly, scientists,
they do not know what is imperfection, and they are scientists.
Devotee (2): The thing about
the blind leading the blind.
Prabhupäda: This is going on.
Jayatértha: Also, they aren’t
able to attract any new priests. In their seminaries, the enrollment has
gone down to ten to fifteen percent of what it was previously.
Prabhupäda: Hm?
Jayatértha: The enrollment
has gone down to ten to fifteen percent of what it was previously.
Prabhupäda: Hm?
Jayatértha: They can’t get
anyone to come and join their seminaries because they aren’t teaching anything,
just (indistinct).
Prabhupäda: What they will
teach, what do they know? First of all you must know, then you will teach.
You are rascal, what you will teach? That is another cheating. He does
not know anything, he is a teacher. People want it. Just like these rascals
are advertising, these gurus, they say “You haven’t got to chant. You simply
come to Guru Mahäräja.” That means these people, because we have
got so many restrictions, he has to chant, he has to follow, they think
it is botheration. So that means immediately they want to be cheated. Therefore,
another cheater is welcomed. They want to be cheated, so when a cheater
comes, he is welcomed, “Oh, you are very nice. You are so simple, and this
Swamiji is so strict.” So they want to be cheated. Therefore God sends
a cheater: “Go and cheat them.”
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 28th Septmeber 1972. Morning Walk conversation. Los Angeles.)
Yaçomaténandana: It’s
better sometimes to approach a person with no religion, Prabhupäda,
than to approach a Christian.
Prabhupäda: Yes.
Yaçomaténandana: These
Christians are very blasphemous.
Prajäpati: Very blasphemous.
Prabhupäda: Yes.
Karandhara: Party spirit.
Prabhupäda: No no, what is
their value? When they are sanctioning abortion, homosex, now they are
finished. They have no value.
Karandhara: Well, most or a greater
proportion of the traditional Christians condemn homosex and abortion.
A good quantity of the traditional Christians, they condemn abortion and
homosex.
Prabhupäda: Yes, they are good,
but mostly, as you were telling me that, that Pope is disgusted... Yes.
Nobody cares for the Bible or the Pope. That is everywhere, not only Christian.
Actually there is no religion at the present moment. All animals. We don’t
blame only the Christians. The Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They have lost
all religion.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 8th December 1973. Morning Walk, Los Angeles.)
Prabhupäda: Yes. This is
their philosophy. And as they pass laws in the Parliament, similarly, these
churches approve: “Yes, homosex is all right.” Then it is all right. This
cheating system is going on. Similar cheating system is the Hindus also.
You’ll find in Calcutta, in College Street, so many butcher house. And
they have kept one goddess Kälé that “We are eating Mother
Kali’s prasäda.” That’s it. This is going on.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 2nd April 1975. Morning Walk, Mayapura.)
Prabhupäda: Now they are
indulging homosex, how they will become strong? And the students, they
are discussing, that means they are having. The stamina is being lost.
Now what they have created, it will be lost.
Amogha: They all seem to think
that spiritual life is something to think about, something...
Prabhupäda: Not very important.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 9th May 1975. Morning Walk. Perth, Australia.)
According to our free will, we are
associating with certain type of the modes of material nature, and then
we become subjected to that material modes. The same example: you infect
some disease, contamination, and you gain the result of it. So our endeavor
should be how to raise ourself to the first, to the sattva-guëa. That
we can do. And then transcend sattva-guëa and reach the spiritual
platform. Everyone is trying to improve his position, but they do not know
what is meant by improvement. Improvement means mostly they are in tamo-guëa,
ignorance. So rise from tamo-guëa to rajo-guëa, rajo-guëa
to sattva-guëa, and then sattva-guëa to transcendence. That is
improvement. So generally, people are suffering on account of association
with tamo-guëa and rajo-guëa, whole material world, mostly tamo-guëa
and few of them in rajo-guëa. The symptoms of rajo-guëa and tamo-guëa
are lust and greediness. Just like yesterday you told me the students
are talking about homosex. That means tamo-guëa, that the education—students,
they are discussing about homosex. That means tamo-guëa, lusty desires,
very prominent, and how to fulfill, by homosex or sex with woman. This
is their subject matter, käma. So everyone in this material world
infected with this tamo-guëa, all lusty desires, in various ways,
varieties. And some of them in rajo-guëa—politics and improvement
of material condition. So we have to cut down this tamo-guëa and rajo-guëa,
come to the sattva-guëa. Then he’ll not be disturbed by these lusty
desires and greediness. Then he’ll be happy. Sthita-sattve prasédati.
When he comes to the sattva-guëa, now he has to make further progress,
sattva-guëa. And the progress means, being situated in sattva-guëa
if he advances in devotional service, Kåñëa consciousness,
then he surpasses all the material qualities. That is perfection of life.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 11th May 1975. Morning Walk, Perth Australia.)
Why you should interpret upon Kåñëa’s
word? If you have got your own philosophy, you write another book. Why
do you touch Bhagavad-gétä? This is their cheating. Bhagavad-gétä
is a popular book. Gandhi also took Bhagavad-gétä for his political
diplomacy. This is going on. And they’ll never agree to accept Bhagavad-gétä
as it is. They’ll never agree. The other day I was there in Kurukñetra.
They have got their own plan—mänava-dharma, this dharma, that dharma.
Kåñëa says, sarva-dharmän parityajya: [Bg. 18.66]
“You give up all these. Kick out all this so-called rascaldom. You just
surrender unto Me.” That they will not do. Except this, everything which
is going on in the name of religion, that is cheating. Everyone is misinterpret...
Just like Christians, they have misinterpreted: “Kill means murder. It
is meant for man.” That means they are making their own lusty desires fulfilled
in the name of Bible, that’s all. Everyone is doing like that. They are
changing. Mass opinion is now homosex. They are passing abortion. They
are passing... What is this? This is their business. For fulfillment of
their lusty desires and greediness, they are bringing the authority of
Bible, Bhagavad-gétä. This is going on in the name of religion.
Devotee (1): They swear on the Bible
in the court. And I was reading in the paper the other day that now in
England they have passed a law whereby a man cannot be convicted of rape
if he honestly believes that the woman consented to be raped.
Prabhupäda: Eh? What is that?
Woman?
Devotee (1): They said that the
man cannot be convicted of rape if he honestly believes that the woman
consented to his raping her.
Prabhupäda: Yes, that is law
always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There
was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some
way or other made the woman admit, “Yes, I felt happiness.” So he was released.
“Here is consent.” And that’s a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no
rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made
the woman agree, “Yes, I felt some pleasure.” “Now, there is consent.”
So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by
force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching
it. That’s a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They
like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they
show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology.
Devotee (1): So what this law means
is that anybody can rape anybody.
Prabhupäda: There is no law;
it is all lusty desire. All law or no law, these are all nonsense. The
çästra has... It is lusty desire, that’s all. Everyone wants
to fulfill a lusty desires. So unless one is not in the modes of goodness
or transcendental, everyone will like. That is the material world, rajas-tamaù.
Rajas-tamo-bhävaù käma-lobhadayaç ca ye [SB 1.2.19].
It is all discussed in the çästra. Just like I am hungry man.
There is foodstuff. I want to eat it. So if I take by force, that is illegal,
and if I pay for it, then it is legal. But I am the hungry man, I want
it. This is going on. Everyone is lusty. Therefore they say “legalized
prostitution.” They want it. So marriage is something legalized, that’s
all.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 11th May 1975. Morning Walk, Perth Australia.)
Prabhupäda: Oh, seagull. They
are doing the same business, and after his much advancement of civilization,
he is doing the same business. The tiger is also eating flesh and blood,
and human being—a scientific slaughterhouse. The same business, but they
have got scientific instrument how to cut the throat quickly. This is the
advance, advancement of civilization. The dog and cat they are having sex
on the open street, and now they are talking of homosex in the school,
colleges for education. This is their position. They do not know even what
is the standard of human civilization. If you are doing the same business
like ordinary animals, then where is the advancement of civilization?
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 11th May 1975. Morning Walk, Perth Australia.)
Prabhupäda: Nescience, yes.
That is pravåtti and nivåtti. Pravåtti means sense enjoyment.
And nivåtti means self-negation. So when we say that “You shall not
have illicit sex,” and their inclination is illicit sex, so therefore it
is revolutionary. They are materialistic persons. They want sex enjoyment
to the best capacity—homosex, this sex, that sex, naked dance, all sexually
inclined, pravåtti. And we say, “Stop this,” nivåtti. They
do not like it because äsura. Pravåtti jagat. They do not know
this is essential. They do not know it. This is essential. Tapasä
brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. Tapasya means brahmacarya. The so-called swamis,
they are coming for this so-called yoga practice and..., but they are themself
victim of sex. This is going on. Actually, it is a bluff—they have become
swami and teaching some yoga system—because they do not know that one has
to stop this first of all. Brahmacaryena. So this bluffing is going on
all over the world, and we are speaking just against them. Murkhayopadeço
hi prakopäya na çäntaye. If you give instruction to the
rascals, he will simply be angry. He will not take advantage of it. This
is our position. All the so-called professors, philosophers, they are all
in the pravåtti-märga. Therefore they are bringing somebody,
“Our interpretation is like this.” Pravåtti-märga. Because if
they can find out some support from the çästra, then they think,
“We are secure.” This is going on. Pravåttim ca nivåttim janä
na vidur äsuräù. The whole world is full of asuras, descendant
of Hiraëyakaçipu, and it is very difficult. But if we give
them chance to chant Hare Kåñëa mantra, gradually they
will understand. (pause) Our difficulty: the so-called swamis, priests,
popes, they are also in the pravåtti-märga. All these, priests,
and they have illicit sex. Pravåtti-märga. So they are passing,
“Yes, you can have homosex with man.” They are getting man-to-man marriage.
You know? They are performing the marriage ceremony between man to man
in the open church. What class of men they are? And they are priest. Just
see. Such degraded persons, drinking... They have got hospital for curing
their drinking disease. Five thousand patients in a hospital in America,
all drunkards, and they are priest. Just see. Simply by dressing long,
what is called, overcoat?
Çrutakérti: Cloak.
Amogha: Habit?
Prabhupäda: Cloak and cross,
they have become. In India also, simply having a thread, a brähmaëa.
Two-paisa thread. That’s all.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 13th May 1975. Morning Walk, Perth Australia.)
Paramahaàsa: They also have
that “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
Prabhupäda: Yes. And they
are very expert in doing that. That is advanced civilization. Now they
are marrying man to man and accepting homosex, so what is the value now
of this priestly class?
Paramahaàsa: They have
another thing now where they, a man goes to the doctor and has an operation
to change his sex from man to woman.
Prabhupäda: Sex. Yes.
Paramahaàsa: Or from woman
to man. That’s called transvestites.
Prabhupäda: That is going
on?
Paramahaàsa: Yes.
Prabhupäda: Successful?
Paramahaàsa: Yes, sometimes.
Sometimes they have some difficulties, but they have had many successful
operations. [break] She can’t have... It can’t have a baby. (laughs)
Prabhupäda: They are doing?
Paramahaàsa: Well, they’re
changing, but they can’t become pregnant. That’s the only thing. They take
these special hormones, and then they can grow breasts and everything just
like a woman. But they can’t become pregnant.
Amogha: In the newspaper there was
an article about two weeks ago about a Christian church in America where
they have a naked dancer come.
Prabhupäda: Hmm?
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 13th May 1975. Morning Walk, Perth Australia.)
Amogha: With all the universities
and high-class schools they’re simply producing...
Prabhupäda: Fourth-class men.
Amogha: Yeah.
Prabhupäda: They are discussing
in the university homosex. They are advanced. Advancement of education.
Just see. They are not even fourth-class men; they are animals, producing
so many animals, that’s all, dogs and hogs. [break] ...in the beginning
çamaù. Çamaù, damaù—first two business.
Control the sense and keep the mind undisturbed. That is the beginning.
Now they are so much sexually disturbed, they’re discussing about the profit
of homosex. Where is first-class men?
Amogha: They say that homosex
keeps the balance of things because...
Prabhupäda: Yes, fourth-class
man can say anything wrong, bad, but we are not going to hear of it. A
fourth-class man’s philosophy, we will have to waste our time to hear them—that’s
not good. They are not even fourth class; they are animal class. Fourth
class has got some position, but they are narädhama, the lowest of
the mankind. So what is their philosophy, and who is going to spoil his
time to hear about their philosophy? [break]
Paramahaàsa: In that verse
it says, jïänaà vijïänam ästikyam. What
is the difference between jïänam and vijïänam?
Prabhupäda: Jïänam
means theoretical, vijïänam means practical.
Devotee (1): Saìkértana
movement is vijïänam.
Prabhupäda: Yes. (pause)
[break] He is in goodness but sometimes he is attacked by the other two
base qualities, passion and ignorance. Then he falls down. Where there
is chance of being contaminated, that is not pure goodness. Pure goodness
is never contaminated. That is (unclear).
Amogha: So pure goodness actually
means those eight qualities mentioned in the Gétä but without
any contamination of the lower qualities.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 14th May 1975. Morning Walk, Perth Australia.)
Prabhupäda: They are discussing
in the university homosex. They are advanced. Advancement of education.
Just see. They are not even fourth-class men; they are animals, producing
so many animals, that’s all, dogs and hogs. [break] ...in the beginning
çamaù. Çamaù, damaù—first two business.
Control the sense and keep the mind undisturbed. That is the beginning.
Now they are so much sexually disturbed, they’re discussing about the profit
of homosex. Where is first-class men?
Amogha: They say that homosex
keeps the balance of things because...
Prabhupäda: Yes, fourth-class
man can say anything wrong, bad, but we are not going to hear of it. A
fourth-class man’s philosophy, we will have to waste our time to hear them—that’s
not good. They are not even fourth class; they are animal class. Fourth
class has got some position, but they are narädhama, the lowest of
the mankind. So what is their philosophy, and who is going to spoil his
time to hear about their philosophy? [break]
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 14th May 1975. Morning Walk, Perth Australia.)
Prabhupäda: Hm. The world is
full of rascals and fourth-class men. That is our verdict, Kåñëa’s
verdict. A human being does not know God, he’s no better than dog. He is
dog. Who knows God? There are so many scientists, philosophers, now everywhere.
And they are discussing on sex philosophy, homosex philosophy, Darwin’s
theory. All third class, fourth class, they are controlling. Now they are
gradually coming to chaotic condition, and their problems, engage so many
big, big officials how to solve. Oh, why you created problem, first of
all? You third-class, fourth-class men, you have created problem, and now
we are trying to make solution—another problem. And because you are the
same fourth-class men, how you can make a solution? You have created the
problems. The man who creates problems, can he make solution? So you are
the same fourth-class man, how you can make a solution? Bring first-class
man. But there are no first-class men. All rogues and rascals. Things are
becoming bad to worse, and still they’ll claim, “We are first class.”
Amogha: They are all rascals, so
the best rascal they say he is first-class. First-class rascal.
Prabhupäda: That I was explaining,
big animal and small animal. Cats and dogs praising one lion.
Amogha: Hm.
Prabhupäda: A lion is also
an animal. But they are thinking, “Oh, one lion.” But we are thinking that
it is also animal. The cats and dogs, they are thinking, “Oh, lion is so
big, so powerful.” But human being is thinking this is also an animal,
big animal. Is it not? (laughs) Tell them. Cats and dogs may praise some
another animal, tiger and... But are the tigers other than animal? He is
also animal.
Devotee: Hare Kåñëa.
[break]
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 18th May 1975. Morning Walk, Perth Australia.)
Prabhupäda: That means they
are gliding down towards hell, that’s all. Yoñitäà saìgi-saìgam.
Now they are coming to the platform of homosex. This is their advancement,
spiritual advancement. Yoñitäà saìgi-saìgam.
This is Coca-cola, everywhere. [break] ... mukti, liberation, and the word
salvation is the same? Then what is the meaning of salvation?
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 21st May 1975. Morning Walk, Melbourne, Aus.)
Prabhupäda: No. There is no
question of high percentage. I said that even a small percentage, there
must be some ideal men. At least people will see that here is the ideal
man. Just like we are having. Because they are chanting and dancing, many
outsiders are coming and they are also learning, they are also offering
obeisances. And gradually they are offering their service: “Please accept
me.” The example is better than precept. If you have an ideal group of
men, then people will automatically learn. That is wanted. But don’t mind,
I don’t find any ideal group of men. Even in the priests they are going
to hospital for their drinking habit. I saw in sometimes before in a hospital,
five thousand patients, alcoholic patients, priest. Priest should be ideal
character. And they are advocating homosex. So where is the ideal character
men? If the priestly class they are going to hospital for drinking habit,
and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosex, then where is ideal
character?
Director: But homosexual is a
sickness.
Devotee: He said it’s an illness.
Director: It’s an illness. It’s
just like a person can’t see, you would punish him for not seeing. You
can’t punish a person for being homosexual. That our society says.
Prabhupäda: Well, anyway,
the priestly class, sanctioning homosex.
Director: Pardon?
Prabhupäda: Sanctioning.
They are allowing homosex. And there was report that man and man was married
by the priest. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian
paper. I have seen in that paper. They are condemning it, that priest is
allowing man-to-man marriage. And they are passing resolution, homosex
is passed, “All right.” And in Perth you said that the students are discussing
about homosex, in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character? If
you want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal
character. That is this Kåñëa consciousness movement.
Director: What you people say
what ideal to you is not ideal to somebody else?
Prabhupäda: I am giving
the example ideal character.
Director: Yeah, but that’s one
opinion.
Prabhupäda: No. It will
not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the value of opinion if the people
are all asses? There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in
the çästra. No opinion. What is the use of taking opinion of
an ass? So the people are trained up just like dogs and asses, then what
is the use of their opinion? If you are to enforce, you must do like this.
Just like when we introduced this “No illicit sex.” I never cared for their
opinion. The opinion... immediately there will be discussion. And what
is the use of taking their opinion? It must be done. That is the defect
of Western civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But
what is the value of this public? Drunkards, smokers, meat-eaters, woman-hunters.
What is the... they are not first-class men. So what is the use of such
third-class, fourth-class men’s opinion? We do not advocate such opinion.
What Kåñëa said, that is standard, that’s all. Kåñëa
is the Supreme, and His version is final.
No opinion, no democracy. When you
go to a physician, doctor, for treatment, the physician does not place
his prescription for opinion of other patients: “Now I am prescribing this
medicine for this gentleman, now give me your opinion.” Does he do that?
The all patients, what they will think? The physician is the perfect person.
Whatever he has written prescription, that’s all. But here in the Western...
everything, public opinion. What is the use of such opinion?
Director: You don’t think the patients
have any mind of their own?
Prabhupäda: They have mind,
but that is deprecated mind. Just like madman, he has got his mind, but
what is the value of that mind? You are not going to take opinion of a
madman. He has his mind, but he is a madman. Müòha. Mäyayäpahåta-jïäna.
His knowledge has been taken away. The mind being, what is called, in disordered
condition, there is no value of his opinion.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada - Discussion with Director of Research of Dept. Social Welfare.
21st May 1975. Morning Walk, Melbourne, Aus.)
Prabhupäda: No, the Christian
churches, all the priests, they eat meat. They’re supporting everything,
homosex, everything, man to man marriage.
Bali-mardana: Now they are making
women the priests.
Prabhupäda: Women priest.
Women priest, there was none before?
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 28th May 1975. Morning Walk, Honolulu, HI.)
Bahuläçva: In California
they have passed a law that homosexuality is legal. So the psychologists
say that they see the dogs and the hogs and monkeys having homosex relationships,
so on that grounds, they say, it should be legal.
Prabhupäda: They have got
homosex? Dogs, hogs, I don’t think.
Bahuläçva: Yeah,
dogs, they say. We were preaching in this one convention that the dogs
are also fighting. So therefore fighting and murder should be legal too
because the dogs do that also.
Brahmänanda: Their argument
was because the dogs have homosex, therefore the man should have...?
Bahuläçva: Should
have homosex.
Dharmädhyakña: Yes,
if an animal does it, then a human being should have the same right to
do it also.
Jayatértha: Then they
can pass stool in the street also?
Prabhupäda: Then what is
the difference between man and animal? They do not find any difference?
Bahuläçva: No.
Prabhupäda: Then why they
find difference in having soul?
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 16th July 1975. Morning Walk, San Francisco. CA.)
Prabhupäda: No. Para-däreñu.
Mätravat para-dareñu. That is the injunction of the çäs...
Other’s wife. Not that “Oh, my wife is also my mother.” Just see. This
lunacy is going on, and this lunatic man is taken as incarnation of God.
This is going on. This homosex propaganda is another side of impotency.
So that is natural. If you enjoy too much, then you become impotent.
Brahmänanda: They are trying
to make that more and more accepted in America, homosex.
Prabhupäda: Yes. The churches
accept. It is already law.
Nitäi: This women’s liberation
movement, the leaders are also homosexual. They’re lesbians.
Prabhupäda: (laughs) Just
see. Hare Kåñëa. The whole world is on the verge of ruination.
Kali-yuga. [break]
Brahmänanda: ...become ruined.
The world is on the verge of ruination, but it doesn’t become ruined; so
therefore they think, “Oh, it doesn’t matter. We can go on.”
Prabhupäda: They do not
know what is the meaning of ruination. [break] ...so many problems. Still
it is not on the verge of ruination?
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 6th September 1975. Morning Walk, Vrindavana.)
Harikeça: Viçäkhä
was preaching to her. She said that “Actually we are less intelligent.”
(laughter) That started a big scandal...
Prabhupäda: Yes. And that
is Kåñëa consciousness. [break] They are in equal right,
then... Nowadays, of course, they are thinking like that, that man should
remain independent, and they’ll have homosex, and the woman also independent
and they will make some... This is most immoral things.
Indian man: If only people think
that they have equal right...
Prabhupäda: Where is equal
right? Even in Russia there is no equal rights. They have created some
of them are managers, and some of them are workers. Why? If equal rights,
then everyone should be manager.
Harikeça: Well, in America
they have women senators now.
Prabhupäda: Huh?
Harikeça: Women senators,
women are in charge of companies sometimes.
Indian man: No, in India there
are two women. They are high commissioners of India to the foreign countries.
Prabhupäda: No, that is
possible. That it requires education. That is another... By nature the
woman’s body is different from man’s.
Indian man: Women are subordinate.
Prabhupäda: Not subordinate
actually. The occupations are different. It does not mean... That is another
mistake. Just like the leg is walking, and the head is directing, so although
the occupation is different, both of them are important. We require the
head and leg also. If simply head is there, if there is no leg, then who’ll
walk? This is the understanding, not equal. Everyone must have his separate
duties to serve the whole. That is the arrangement. This is real understanding.
The most important part of the body is head, but that does not mean the
leg is not important. Leg is important in its work, and head is important
in its work. So we require both, head and tail both, not that simply leg
or simply head. But when we make comparative study, we can understand that
head is more important than the leg. If you cut your leg, you can live,
but if you cut your head, you’ll die. Therefore the conclusion is: head
is more important than the leg. Comparative study. Otherwise head is also
required and leg is also required. You collect some flowers, nice flowers,
and, add with it some green foliage, it becomes more beautiful. Simply
flower is not so beautiful. When it is arrayed with some green foliage,
then it becomes more beautiful. So we have to take in that sense. But comparatively,
the flower is more important than the foliage. But the both of them are
required.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 10th December 1975. Morning Walk, Vrindavana.)
Prabhupäda: That they are doing.
Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have
no philosophy and they violate everything, what is stated there in Bible.
Now you say that “Thou shall not kill;” they say, “Thou shall not murder.”
They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man-to-man marriage.
They are sanctioning abortion.
Acyutänanda: Yes. Two homosexuals
were married by a priest.
Prabhupäda: Yes.
Tamäla Kåñëa:
Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending
people are homosexual.
Prabhupäda: Hm?
Tamäla Kåñëa:
Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual,
and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.
Prabhupäda: Just see. Is
that religion?
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 8th January 1976. Room Conversation, Nellore, India)
Prabhupäda: It is not their
fault. The Western civilization is like that. Now you have to make a thorough
change. The persons from the ecclesiastical order, they are also so polluted,
they are sanctioning homosex, abortion. What can be done for the common
man?
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 8th April 1976. Morning Walk, Mayapura, India)
Prabhupäda: Just see. Rascal
priests also so sinful. Yes, they’re supporting homosex. So when the priests
are sinful, the public is sinful, how the church will go on? Churches,
they are expecting church must support abortion and child killing.
Tamäla Kåñëa:
Oh, yes, it is progressive. They feel that is the progressive way to think.
Rämeçvara: And the
church should not interfere with their.... That is their decision.
Tamäla Kåñëa:
It is personal life.
Prabhupäda: This is the
rascal.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 6th June 1976. Morning Walk, Los Angeles.)
Prabhupäda: .... association,
everything is bad(?). So degraded condition, there is no good association.
Therefore I say that we require a first-class man section. A first-class....
All third class, fourth class. Even the so-called priests, they are also
fourth-class, fifth-class men. Indulging in homosex.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 17th June 1976. Morning Walk, Toronto, Canada.)
Prabhupäda: No, no. He was made
chief. Guru Mahäräja did not make him chief. But after his passing
away, some of our Godbrothers voted him chief.
Puñöa Kåñëa:
Am I mis...? You had told me once, I’m not certain. Maybe I made a mistake.
You said that Väsudeva, it was known fact that he was homosex?
Prabhupäda: Yes.
Puñöa Kåñëa:
Väsudeva.
Prabhupäda: He was homosex
and sex, everything.
Puñöa Kåñëa:
Here, Çréla Prabhupäda, in this city.... I haven’t been
back in so many years to America. Things have become more degraded. I’m
watching women and women walking arm around each other. And I asked, “What
is this?” “Oh,” he says “they are lesbians.” Women together, girlfriends.
They don’t mix with men.
Prabhupäda: This is now
very much prevalent in America.
Puñöa Kåñëa:
No higher consciousness.
Prabhupäda: I had one disciple,
she was for that purpose (?), yes.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 18th June 1976. Room Conversation, Toronto, Canada.)
Tamäla Kåñëa:
The priests are doing all rascal nonsense. Homosex.
Prabhupäda: They announced
that...(?) There is a hospital for drunkard priest.
Tamäla Kåñëa:
Alcoholic priests.
Prabhupäda: And they have
introduced gambling.
Tamäla Kåñëa:
And homosex.
Prabhupäda: Homosex, what
is that religion? And they’re passing to homosex, religion. They’re getting
married man to man. Most degraded.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 16th February 1977. Morning Room Conversation, Mayapura.)
Prabhupäda: No, they are
drinking. They are having homosex. They are encouraging homosex, giving
man-to-man marriage. You know that? This is going on. Doing everything
nonsense.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 28th April 1977. Conversation: Vairaghya, Salaries, Political
Etiquette. Bombay.)
Prabhupäda: The hippies are
nothing but a group of madmen, that’s all. A madman, they..., means publicly
sex, that’s all. This Allen Ginsberg’s movement is that, homosex, public
sex. Ginsberg was very proud that he had introduced homosex. He was telling
me.
Tamäla Kåñëa:
He was telling you?
Prabhupäda: When he first
came to me he was very proud: “I have introduced homosex.” He thought very
brilliant work it was. And another man, what is that? He’s put into jail.
Tamäla Kåñëa:
Timothy Leary.
Prabhupäda: Ha, ha. What
is his position now?
Tamäla Kåñëa:
I haven’t heard about him in the last few years. He’s in and out of jail,
I think. I saw one time he was just getting out of jail. It just shows...
I think he was a big professor at Harvard. So the idle mind, devil’s workshop.
So he used his big brain for making this LSD. That’s the value of this
Ph.D. degree.
Prabhupäda: He was Ph.D.?
Tamäla Kåñëa:
Oh, yeah. Big personality. And because of the fact that he was an important
member of the faculty at Harvard, so even though all he produced was an
intoxicant, he gave it so much explanation, that “This is...”
Prabhupäda: Transcendental
meditation.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 14th July 1977. Room Conversation on Varnashram. Vrindavan.)
Letter to: Lalitananda
--
Hawaii
26 May, 1975
75-05-26
My Dear Lalitananda dasa,
Please accept my blessings. I
am in due receipt of your letter dated May 13rd, 1975 and have noted the
contents. I am very sorry that you have taken to homosex. It will not help
you advance in your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper
your advancement. I do not know why you have taken to such abominable activities.
What can I say? Anyway, try to render whatever service you can to Krishna.
Even though you are in a very degraded condition Krishna, being pleased
with your service attitude, can pick you up from your fallen state. You
should stop this homosex immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your
chances of advancing in spiritual life are nil. Show Krishna you are serious,
if you are.
I hope this meets you in good
health.
Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
NOTE:
Lalitananda dasa died of AIDS September
1989 in Berkley after his homosexual partner contracted HIV.
pähi mäà paramätmaàs
te
preñaëenäsåjaà
prajäù
tä imä yabhituà
päpä
upäkrämanti mäà
prabho
SYNONYMS
pähi—protect; mäm—me;
parama-ätman—O Supreme Lord; te—Your; preñaëena—by order;
asåjam—I created; prajäù—living beings; täù
imäù—those very persons; yabhitum—to have sex; päpäù—sinful
beings; upäkrämanti—are approaching; mäm—me; prabho—O Lord.
TRANSLATION
Lord Brahmä, approaching the
Lord, addressed Him thus: My Lord, please protect me from these sinful
demons, who were created by me under Your order. They are infuriated by
an appetite for sex and have come to attack me.
PURPORT
It appears here that the homosexual
appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation
of the demons by Brahmä. In other words, the homosexual appetite of
a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary
course of life.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. Srimad Bhagavatam 3:20:26 text and purport.)
Devotee (2): Then when (name witheld)
said to me that he wanted to have homosexual affair with me, I should have
said, “Okay. Whatever you say.” Is that correct?
Prabhupäda: So how to answer
these questions?
Devotee (2): That is what he said
to me. And he was a sannyäsa. He is sannyäsa and he said to me,
“I want to have sex with you.” Does that mean that Kåñëa
was saying I should have sex with him?
Jayatértha: So you have to
see whether it is according to our principles.
Devotee (2): I’m asking you on a
very practical... No. That is not what he said. He didn’t say that. He
said absolutely, and this is...
Upendra: Then you should listen
to everything he said.
Devotee (2): I am. Because if I
can judge then, if I can say, “Oh, at this point he is wrong,” then that
is what we are talking about, Çréla Prabhupäda. That
is the issue. If they are absolutely right all the time and they can make
no error, they wield absolute power over our lives.
Prabhupäda: Where is (name
witheld)? Where is (he)?
Satsvarüpa: He is across the
street.
Prabhupäda: Has he said like
that?
Devotee (2): Yes. I have witnesses.
Upendra: But he’s admitted his error.
Devotee (2): That’s beside the point.
Revaténandana: That’s all
right. But that’s not the point here.
Upendra: The point is that Prabhupäda,
that if you come before Prabhupäda for your own spiritual advancement,
then it doesn’t matter what other people are thinking...
Devotee (2): That’s not the...
Devotee (1): That’s not the crux
of the matter at all.
Revaténandana: The point
here is not to criticize (him).
Devotee (1): No. We did not come
for that at all.
Revaténandana: That wasn’t
the reason. The point is that anyone, (name witheld) or anybody else, he
may be a sannyäsé, but if he’s doing all kinds of nonsense,
how can we say that he has absolute authority? Because he was in charge
of the place, etc., and he is also in an authoritative position, yet he
breaks the principles.
Devotee (2): His personal servant,
when he came... His name is (name witheld). (He) instigated a homosexual
affair with him. This boy came to surrender to Kåñëa
and surrendered to (him). But (he) told him to do that.
Upendra: But Prabhupäda...
Devotee (2): Wait. I am not speaking
with you. He said he did that and he did it in the name of his authority
as a sannyäsa. So if you say, Prabhupäda, that everything that
they say is absolutely true, then they will have absolute power and can
do anything that they want, and anything that they say and any opinion
they express is taken to be the same as yours, then it becomes implied
that you agree with and condone such things, because they do them with
absolute license. And we don’t believe that to be true. So we think it
is some kind of mistake.
Prabhupäda: They say like that?
Devotee (1): Everyone says like
that.
Devotee (2): They do, Prabhupäda.
Satsvarüpa: No, they don’t.
Çréla Prabhupäda has said these things don’t apply to
you. Don’t worry about them because you are not following the principles.
Devotee (1): But they do say, and
we are following and you don’t know what we’re doing, Satsvarüpa,
because you haven’t known me for two years. So you really don’t know what
I’m doing. You’re not around.
Satsvarüpa: But our society
is going nicely. It’s not...
Devotee (2): In some respects it’s
going fine. But these are problems which can be dealt with amongst us,
and they are affecting all of us. And for some people these are problems
though they may not be for you. I think, as far as I know, your conduct
has always been very honorable. But for some people who it’s not and where
these misconceptions apply, it’s a real problem and we’re trying to deal
with it because it affects our lives.
Upendra: The strength to deal with
those problems comes from following sädhanäcära.
Devotee (2): We are also attempting
to follow sädhanäcära. And if we are imperfect...
Prabhupäda: Anyway, if he
has said so, that is wrong.
Devotee (1): But is that then applying
to everyone. Does someone who is in the adminis... (end)
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 26th June 1975. Room Conversation. LA)
Prabhupäda: That they are
doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water.
They have no philosophy and they violate everything, what is stated there
in Bible. Now you say that “Thou shall not kill;” they say, “Thou shall
not murder.” They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man-to-man
marriage. They are sanctioning abortion.
Acyutänanda: Yes. Two homosexuals
were married by a priest.
Prabhupäda: Yes.
Tamäla Kåñëa:
Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending
people are homosexual.
Prabhupäda: Hm?
Tamäla Kåñëa:
Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual,
and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.
Prabhupäda: Just see. Is
that religion?
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 8th January 1976, Room Conversation. Nellore, India.)
Rämeçvara: And I found
an article in the Time magazine about another translator of Bhagavad-gétä,
Christopher Isherwood.
Prabhupäda: He is rascal,
another rascal.
Rämeçvara: They have
reported that he is a homosexual.
Prabhupäda: Just see. Now,
who cares for all these nonsense?
Rämeçvara: In regards
to brainwashing, they claim that our life-style tends to take the devotee
and isolate him from the world.
Prabhupäda: Yes. We hate
to mix with you. No gentleman tries to mix with loafers. In England still,
the rich quarter is different from the poor quarter. Is it not?
Hari-çauri: Not so much.
It was though, formerly, very strongly.
Prabhupäda: Yes. Aristocratic
will never live... Even in America, they don’t like to live with the blacks.
Rämeçvara: No.
Prabhupäda: (aside:) That
child...? So that separation... Crows will not like to live with the ducks
and white swans. And white swans will not like to live with the crows.
That is natural division. “Birds of the same feather flock together.”
Jagadéça: And honest
men don’t like to associate with thieves and criminals.
Prabhupäda: Yes, that is
natural. We are not interested even with these daily newspapers. We are
interested Bhagavad-gétä. We don’t keep any news. We know the
dogs are barking. That’s all. But that does not mean we have to mix with
the dogs.
Jagadéça: If you
know that someone is committing criminal activities, then if you associate
with them, you’ll also become implicated.
Prabhupäda: Yes. Saìgät
saïjäyate kämaù.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 11th January 1977. Conversation on train to Allahabad, India.)
Amogha: They think that people
who say there is Absolute Truth have not observed the other thoughts of
other people, so they haven’t seen everything.
Prabhupäda: What is that
other thought? We know everyone’s thought. We know everyone’s thought.
Amogha: In the university newspaper
I was reading, all their discussion is about things like homosexuality
is all right or not all right.
Prabhupäda: Äcchä?
They are discussing?
Amogha: Yes. In the newspaper
articles in the university. The homosexuals are campaigning for equal rights.
And there is a big debate whether homosexuals are good or bad. All over
the world there are homosexuals, and also they are arguing over Palestine
and Israel. And sometimes (indistinct) In Melbourne there was fighting
between people who support Israel and Palestine. All these arguments they
have in the newspapers.
Paramahaàsa: Even in Los
Angeles they have a group of homosexuals who used to get harassed by people
all the time. So now they have become a military group, and they carry
weapons. And if anybody harasses them, they shoot them. They’re called
Militant Homosexuals.
Amogha: In one high school here
they asked the question whether we accept homosexuality. And I said, “Of
course not. This is only a perversion.” And they said, “This is nature’s
way to stop overpopulation,” because there won’t be any children. So much
foolish.
Prabhupäda: How degraded
the human society is becoming. And the children, they are discussing.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 9th May 1975, Morning Walk, Perth, Australia)
Prabhupäda: So miserable condition...
That is our conclusion, that either you remain this side or that side,
it is miserable. By mental concoction you think that “This is better than
that.” Therefore Kåñëa says frankly, sarva-dharmän
parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. That is only shelter. Mäm upetya kaunteya
duùkhälayam açäçvatam näpnuvanti [Bg.
8.15]. [break] ...take Kåñëa’s words as it is. Everything
is there. He said, “This material world is duùkhälayam; it
is the place of suffering.” Industrialist, businessman, anyone, even ordinary
man, actually everyone is suffering, but everyone is thinking, “I am happy.”
[break]
Brahmänanda: ...because there
is some sex pleasure, that makes it tolerable.
Prabhupäda: Yes, that is the,
what is called, topmost ignorance, topmost ignorance, that “This is happiness.”
So the materialistic person means only for that happiness they are suffering
so much, this way. They agree, “Yes.” Just like Dr., er, Bon Mahäräja
was speaking that they are talking freely?
Brahmänanda: Oh, about homosexuality.
Prabhupäda: “Oh, yes. What
is the wrong? It is pleasure.” They take it as pleasure.
Brahmänanda: The priests.
They’re in the theological seminary, and they are priests, and they are
saying that “It is pleasurable, so why not do it?”
Prabhupäda: And what is
the pleasure? Stool-passing and urine-passing points are joined together,
and it is pleasure. Just see their standard of pleasure. Just like the
pigs. With pleasure, they eat stool. So they think it is pleasure. Standard
of pleasure has gone down so low. This is Kali-yuga. [break] ...advanced.
He has disciple, guru, but he knows that he is suffering whole life for
this institution. Still he’ll not give it up.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 1st September 1975. Morning Walk, Vrindavan.)
Tamäla Kåñëa:
The translation is, “For the soul there is never birth nor death nor having
once been does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing,
undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.”
Prabhupäda: So there is no
question of death for a spiritually realized person.
Interviewer: Is there any method
for dissent within your movement? Or change?
Tamäla Kåñëa:
Reform, you mean? Changing the teaching perhaps, to fit the times?
Rämeçvara: Just like
in the church, as the public mood is changed, they have compromised on
certain issues like abortion, homosexuality, priests getting married. So
she wants to know if in our movement there will be this arrangement also.
(laughter)
Interviewer: Well, I didn’t necessarily
mean the specifics.
Bali-mardana: In other words the
purity is maintained by... The system is perfect to begin with so it remains
perfect by being unchanged. If the system is imperfect, you may always
be questioning.
Prabhupäda: Yes. When the system
is imperfect, then it has to be changed according to time and circumstance.
But if the system is itself perfect, there is no question of... Just like
the perfect system: the sun rises from the eastern side. So for millions
and trillions of years the system is going on because the system is perfect.
It doesn’t require change, neither you can change. You cannot ask the sun
to rise from the western side. So if the soul is eternal, it does not die
or it is slain after the body is finished. But that is eternal fact. Destined
in the past present and future, everything.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 14th July 1976. Interview with Newsweek. New York.)
Amogha: In the university newspaper
I was reading, all their discussion is about things like homosexuality
is all right or not all right.
Prabhupäda: Äcchä?
They are discussing?
Amogha: Yes. In the newspaper
articles in the university. The homosexuals are campaigning for equal rights.
And there is a big debate whether homosexuals are good or bad. All over
the world there are homosexuals, and also they are arguing over Palestine
and Israel. And sometimes (indistinct) In Melbourne there was fighting
between people who support Israel and Palestine. All these arguments they
have in the newspapers.
Paramahaàsa: Even in Los
Angeles they have a group of homosexuals who used to get harassed by people
all the time. So now they have become a military group, and they carry
weapons. And if anybody harasses them, they shoot them. They’re called
Militant Homosexuals.
Amogha: In one high school here
they asked the question whether we accept homosexuality. And I said, “Of
course not. This is only a perversion.” And they said, “This is nature’s
way to stop overpopulation,” because there won’t be any children. So much
foolish.
Prabhupäda: How degraded
the human society is becoming. And the children, they are discussing.
Amogha: It seems that step by
step, in the law courts and the judges, everyone is step by step accepting
more and more degradation, and makind it legal, everything.
(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada. 9th May 1975, Morning Walk, Perth Australia.)
Nitäi: "Because the body is
made of senses, which also require a certain amount of satisfaction, there
are regulative directions for satisfaction of such senses, but the senses
are not meant for unrestricted enjoyment. For example, marriage..."
Prabhupäda: That is not
enjoyment. Just like sex indulgence. If you indulge in more than necessary,
then you will be impotent. Nature will stop. You know impotency? That will
be there. Impotency. This homosex is also another sign of impotency. They
do not feel sex impulse to woman. They feel sex impulse in man. That means
he is impotent. It is impotency. So things are coming so rubbish now. This
is the time for preaching our program, standard. Then?
Nitäi: "For example, marriage,
or the combination of a man with a woman, is necessary for progeny, but
it is not meant for sense enjoyment."
Prabhupäda: Now this progeny
is bother. It is sense enjoyment, homosex. Progeny, they don't want. They're
not interested. Only sense gratification. This is another sign of impotency.
When after enjoying so many women, they become impotent, then they artificially
create another sex impulse in homosex. This is the psychology. So people
are degraded so much. Especially in the... Everywhere, not specially this
or that. Everywhere. This is Kali-yuga. But thoughtful leaders, they are
thinking, "What to do?" That's very good sign. And take advantage and give
them program exactly to the direction of Bhagavad-gétä.
Then the world will be saved. Otherwise it is doomed. It is a fact. This
is the opportunity for preaching. You can take that paper and heading.
There are so many headings. Each heading reply. We are the only persons
who can give solution. There is no other group or any man in the world.
We are only. So let them take advantage of our knowledge and apply in the
society to the ben... That's all right. Now all the sannyäsis have
got the good opportunity to preach. So where is the key? Keep it. (end)
(Arrival Address Chicago, IL 3rd July 1975.)
From Nara Narayan Dasa Vishwakarma dasa ACBSP:
This was December 1968.
The devotees and Srila Prabhupada were in New York City on 62 2nd Ave.
I had already known Madhavi Lata from San Francisco and Seattle. She
chanted very beautifully and she was a very loved person. She was also
rather dark and eccentric and kept to herself.
She was from New York, and I wasn't particularly aware of her being
there, because I had just come from Los Angeles to build the Temple in
62 2nd Ave and make a Vyasasana, and I took my Gayatri initiation from
Srila Prabhupada.
We were all in the Temple Room which was crowded with 60-80 devotees,
and Srila Prabhupada was sitting on the Vyasasana, which was in a notch
in the wall on the North side of the room.
As we were concentrating on the discourse given by Srila Prabhupada
in conversation with other devotees, the doors opened all of a sudden,
and Madhavi Lata came in, not dressed in a sari, and with an unusually
animated expression on her face, pulling by the hand a girl that could
only be described as a "doxy" - dramatically blond hair, bright red lipstick,
bright red high heeled shoes, and the sort of short dress that one would
associate with showgirls.
When this occurred, everything sort of stopped in the room, and everyone
was rather surprised, because no one had really considered that Madhavi
Lata was a lesbian. We just saw her as a nice devotee.
Srila Prabhupada looks at Madhavi Lata with an inquiring, and perhaps
slightly surprised look on His Face. Madhavi Lata then said, "Oh Srila
Prabhupada, I would like to introduce you to my girlfriend, --(name)----".
Then she asked, "May I have your blessing to have her as my girlfriend?"
Srila Prabhupada looked at her very formally and said, "This is illicit
sex. We cannot allow in our Movement. Please leave and when you are finished
with this, come back by yourself."
Madhavi Lata was quite shocked. I think she really thought she could
sell Srila Prabhupada on her lesbian relationship.
So they left immediately, and then, Madhavi Lata came back alone after
a period of time, maybe a couple of weeks, but she was quite disgruntled.
WHAT DO I THINK OF LBGT? (Nara Narayan Dasa Vishwakarma dasa ACBSP)
I was raised in a pragmatic scientific learning mood as I reached adulthood. For me, raised on a farm, outside of the confines of religion and its inevitable mediocrity, I saw humanity simply as mammals, and as such breeding and reproducing by normal mammalian sexual activity, with the likely result of bearing offspring not dissimilarly in process and result than the other mammals of all the various species around.
Same sex, transgender etc. simply indicate that the genetic code, (breeding factor when applied to purebred horses and dogs) will simply be extinguished by not producing genetic development and diversification of their DNA.
By fighting for the right to be "same sex" or "transgender", their existential choice as human mammals is to eradicate their DNA lineage.
Once they are dead, the genetic line stops there with no hope of ever being revived in the Eternal Course of Time.
Like dinosaurs, they are creating their own extinction, which (to me) indicates that they place no value whatsoever on their having been born as Human Mammals, and that extinction for them is preferable to continuing their genetic line.
In rat studies, there is a term, "Too many rats in the box". When you have too many rats in the box, they turn to 'rodosexuality".
Our human society has produced the symptom of "too many rats in the box".
A heto man with four children and a wife trying to live on $50,000.00 per year, is inundated by the symptoms of poverty.
Four gay men each earning $50,000 per year in a San Francisco Victorian Mansion, have a joint spending income of $200,000.00, and I have seen how opulently such four men live with vases of flowers, antique furniture, Jaguar cars, etc, etc, etc.
In our overly centralized and impersonalized Corporate World, Heterosexuality is simply no longer economically as feasible as gay groups living together.
My answer is to return to Varnashram Dharma with ten thousand acres, three thousand people, lots of cows, and oxen.
Vaishyas tending the cows with the help of the huge number of Sudras, 3% Brahmins, 8% Ksyatriyas to defend the borders of the land from maurauders, and 80% Sudras.
The key to success?
All four Varnas will be INITIATED DISCIPLES OF SRILA PRABHUPADA, so the Brahmins can offer obeisances to a spiritually observant Sudra!
The sudras will all have nice cottages, the women will have nice sarees and bangles, they will not need to pay a mortgage, as their home will be theirs as long as they wish.
No money required, as the Brahmins will cook in huge temple Kitchens such as those in Puri, and goods will be distributed according to need, not some sort of corporate profit.
In other words,
RAM RAJYA!
"From each according to his ability, and too each according to his need"
In such a mellow, supportive atmosphere homosexuality will have no basis to exist. Good sex with a woman without fear of poverty when children arrive, will certainly be more attractive than meaningless loss of semen between frustrated corporate haunted men.
And those who still want to be homosexual?
They can chant Hare Krishna, but not be able to take initiation unless they wish to live a life of true Brahmacharia. they will need to make their way in the world without the cohesive strict adherence to the four regulative principles, that Daivi Varnashram requires.
That is Srila Prabhupada's standard, and as I was initiated in 1968, I had ample opportunity to see for myself what SP wanted from His disciples.
I ask the gay community not to fictionalize what Krishna will allow in this Sampradaya and what He will not.
No one can stop gay people from chanting Hare Krishna, but they cannot do so as initiates in the Sacred Kshetra of the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya!